WEBVTT

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<v Ingo>Yeah i'm here now on the.

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<v Pascal>Open source summit and with me is pascal.

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<v Ingo>Van damme and.

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<v Pascal>You invented something or created something called turtle growth and for me,

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<v Pascal>or all the people who never heard turtle growth what what is it.

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<v Ingo>What can i create with turtle.

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<v Pascal>Growth okay well it actually is it's a development environment in this case

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<v Pascal>for children to learn in this case how to program in this case in a way,

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<v Pascal>that is really native to them and that kind of stuff actually yeah in the program

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<v Pascal>it's called turtle growth it's doing something with turtles

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<v Pascal>so actually in this case it's an implementation of the logo program language

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<v Pascal>and the program language logo of course didn't invent it myself but it's actually

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<v Pascal>there from the early early 60s and that kind of stuff

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<v Pascal>actually there were some really great minds actually there both on the computer

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<v Pascal>science level as well as on the pedagogic level like for example in this case

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<v Pascal>a great PRJ and that kind of stuff

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<v Pascal>and they acted for the cake what's actually the best way in this case to have

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<v Pascal>kids learn and that kind of stuff and he actually found out that kids actually

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<v Pascal>learn the best when he actually able in this case to look at their peers

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<v Pascal>and see what they do and actually they can make things together and actually

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<v Pascal>build that way it's called it constructionism

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<v Pascal>and actually the guys actually there were three people in this case building

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<v Pascal>and developing the language logo and they actually said okay we also need to

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<v Pascal>have this one in this case underlying or language and that kind of stuff so

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<v Pascal>what it actually is you have a turtle.

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<v Pascal>And you can give that turtle actually all kind of commands. And you can first

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<v Pascal>do it nicely imperative in that kind. You just say to the turtle,

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<v Pascal>go forward, turn to the right, turn to the left, and that kind of stuff.

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<v Pascal>And later on, you can actually teach the turtle really to do things.

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<v Pascal>For example, draw a square, draw a triangle, draw a spiral, and that kind of stuff.

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<v Pascal>And the nice thing is actually in our environment, in the Turtle Grove environment,

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<v Pascal>kids can actually see what the other kids actually are creating.

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<v Pascal>And even, for example, in the true open source sense, actually,

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<v Pascal>they can for example share their code with the other kids in that kind and that

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<v Pascal>way they can actually in this case build together and that kind of stuff really construction,

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<v Pascal>okay but when i was young we learned pascal why not pascal is is there.

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<v Ingo>I don't know or nowadays scratch why.

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<v Pascal>Yeah yeah that's actually quite nice because actually pascal is a great language

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<v Pascal>it's in the name uh yeah and actually in my case actually also you learned ucsd

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<v Pascal>pascal before I actually learned another language.

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<v Pascal>And in my case, I actually learned Logo actually because it was,

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<v Pascal>in this case, mandatory when I actually was, in this case, at the high school and that kind of stuff.

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<v Pascal>Well, of course, Pascal is a nice language. Python is a nice language.

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<v Pascal>The nice thing is you're actually mentioning Scratch, and Scratch is actually

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<v Pascal>a derivative in this case with Logo and that kind of stuff.

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<v Ingo>Oh, okay.

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<v Pascal>Why in this case logo and i go quite simple it is something that,

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<v Pascal>really helps kids in this case also for example they can actually in this case

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<v Pascal>mimic the program language with their own body and that kind of stuff now what

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<v Pascal>you for example can do and it was in this case also in the presentation that

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<v Pascal>you just witnessed and that kind of stuff,

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<v Pascal>a colleague of mine he's actually doing stuff in this case for open source africa

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<v Pascal>and we have a lot of schools there these schools cannot afford themselves in

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<v Pascal>this case computers and that kind of stuff we actually have a game mate and

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<v Pascal>some physical gaming where actually one of the students for example,

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<v Pascal>plays the turtle and that kind of stuff while other students or the teacher

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<v Pascal>for example can command him to do things for example and also that way in this

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<v Pascal>case learn programming it's actually a little bit more,

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<v Pascal>you can reflect the program language in your body and if the turtle actually

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<v Pascal>says forwards for example 100 hey you actually said for example 10 step forwards

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<v Pascal>and that kind of stuff the turtle for example is being commanded

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<v Pascal>draw to the right 90 degrees you draw to the right 90 degrees and from From

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<v Pascal>that on, you do the next steps and that kind of stuff.

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<v Pascal>If you're looking at a program language like Pascal, it's, of course,

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<v Pascal>really nice. It's an imperative language, et cetera.

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<v Pascal>But that's way bigger abstraction than actually the turtle is.

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<v Ingo>But i think when i was in school we.

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<v Pascal>Did learn it with pascal.

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<v Ingo>And there was a thing called nikki the robot.

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<v Pascal>I mean it's.

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<v Ingo>The same thing i think.

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<v Pascal>Yeah you have in definitely in in some program languages like python and and

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<v Pascal>definitely also go etc uh you have these these total libraries etc so they're definitely there etc,

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<v Pascal>but this is completely in this case here you don't need to know in this case

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<v Pascal>another language you don't need to import libraries and that kind It's just

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<v Pascal>there, you just log in and that kind of stuff, and you can play with it.

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<v Ingo>But nowadays kids have something like Scratch or Minecraft for instance.

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<v Ingo>So why do we need Turtle Grove?

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<v Pascal>Good question. Of course Scratch

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<v Pascal>in this case is nice with all kinds of icons and that kind of stuff.

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<v Pascal>Even one of my youngest kids actually was on Lego Mindstorms where you also have these icons.

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<v Pascal>Also, by the way, they're derivative in this case of Logo etc.

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<v Pascal>This is, for me, what I see, this is a nice, in this case, mix between both worlds.

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<v Pascal>You do not have, like with Python and Pascal, that you need to read or actually

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<v Pascal>write a lot of prose actually to do something with even, for example,

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<v Pascal>English that you are barely, in this case, managing.

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<v Pascal>And you do not have the other, actually, let's say, part where actually the

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<v Pascal>other side where you actually, in this case, have just icons actually that you

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<v Pascal>are piecing together, etc.

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<v Pascal>So it's a little bit more of the old world and a little bit of the new world.

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<v Pascal>And it's easy accessible and that kind of stuff it lives really in the yeah

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<v Pascal>let's say that the mind and the fantasy of kids and that kind of stuff.

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<v Ingo>Yeah so you need to type more than for instance in.

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<v Pascal>Scratch yeah yeah definitely it's uh yeah more in this case nicely typing less

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<v Pascal>in this case with the mouse and that kind of stuff so okay why is open source for.

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<v Ingo>For instance for.

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<v Pascal>Turtle growth so.

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<v Ingo>Important what do you.

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<v Pascal>Think it's important to actually have this available for as much children actually as possible.

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<v Pascal>So the main reason actually why, actually there are a lot of reasons actually

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<v Pascal>why I developed in that kind of stuff. One was actually quite simple.

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<v Pascal>My youngest actually, I had to homeschool him for two years in that kind of

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<v Pascal>stuff. He asked in this case to,

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<v Pascal>Yeah, teach them how to program and that kind of stuff. And I needed to have

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<v Pascal>something that really, in this case, would fit in this world and that kind of stuff.

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<v Pascal>And the other part is we have these projects, in this case, in Africa and that

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<v Pascal>kind of stuff, where also kids would like to program that kind of stuff.

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<v Pascal>We actually had, in this case, also in this conference, one of our colleagues

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<v Pascal>from Africa actually came to us. And my colleague actually does a lot,

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<v Pascal>in this case, of trainings there.

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<v Pascal>And he really was happy and grateful for him. but he said okay and what i regret

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<v Pascal>is that i only actually came in contact with computer science when i actually was 23 24

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<v Pascal>what i would like to have in this case that i could actually have this early

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<v Pascal>and that kind of stuff for my kids and the kids to come and that kind of stuff

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<v Pascal>that would be great and actually making it open source making it available so

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<v Pascal>everyone would like it you can actually host it locally,

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<v Pascal>you can host it in this case and use our hosted services and that kind of all

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<v Pascal>these things are possible it's just it's from the community and for the community.

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<v Ingo>And you also made a point that that it.

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<v Pascal>It's trying to teach kids.

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<v Ingo>How open source works right so they learn how how to do open.

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<v Pascal>Source exactly how to do open source and so the action is can create a program

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<v Pascal>and if for example then of course they are the first one to decide whether or

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<v Pascal>not we would like to do that but if they would like to share their code for

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<v Pascal>example with other kids they can actually push a button,

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<v Pascal>and the other kids if you could actually see on the screen and actually what

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<v Pascal>he's doing is so kind of like that i would like to improve on that i would like

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<v Pascal>to get with you then he actually can copy it within his in this case work workshop.

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<v Ingo>But i can also download my code and.

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<v Pascal>Yeah you can download it save it if you would like to yeah but we're even playing

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<v Pascal>in this case with doing some github in this case for kids github or something.

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<v Ingo>Okay so you run this turtle.

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<v Pascal>For everyone.

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<v Ingo>For the whole world, right?

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<v Pascal>Yeah.

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<v Ingo>But I could also self-host it.

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<v Pascal>You could also self-host it. We are actually already some people actually asking,

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<v Pascal>can we actually host it, for example, for our schools specifically?

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<v Pascal>Because we would like to have, in this case, of course, a little bit of control

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<v Pascal>and that kind of all is possible.

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<v Ingo>Mm-hmm.

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<v Ingo>Your version is on kubernetes.

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<v Pascal>A in a container and we can run over potman if you'd like to if you'd like to

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<v Pascal>have it run in this case a more highly available orchestrated it runs on kubernetes

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<v Pascal>etc it runs on very small hardware,

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<v Pascal>we have it run in this case on raspberry pi force and that kind of stuff yeah

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<v Pascal>so it's easy to to self-host yeah for and then to get people kids together on

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<v Pascal>this platform that they can yeah teach.

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<v Ingo>Other people or teachers teach.

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<v Pascal>Themselves or among themselves yes but should i self-host it or do you do you say okay there's plenty,

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<v Pascal>yeah it depends on just this what you want i can fully understand that again

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<v Pascal>that the let's say open internet world is a scary world definitely also for kids and that kind of,

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<v Pascal>stuff so you actually have it just in your closed environment in this case at

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<v Pascal>school for example so that's a good thing you,

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<v Pascal>can check everything and that kind of stuff if for example here like in africa

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<v Pascal>for example yeah quite simple you may be happy actually if kids have something,

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<v Pascal>like a tablet and that kind most times they don't even have that and that kind

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<v Pascal>of stuff so actually can you make use in this case of the yeah the hosted one.

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<v Ingo>What's next for Turtle Grove? What are your next plans?

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<v Pascal>Next plan is actually to actually improve on the language itself,

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<v Pascal>because actually still missing some stuff to be fully local compatible. There's one.

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<v Pascal>Of course, I also would like to improve in this case about that whole constructionism.

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<v Pascal>So we actually have now a shared campus where actually kids can actually work

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<v Pascal>together on and that kind of stuff.

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<v Pascal>And I actually would like to actually enhance that experience.

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<v Pascal>We're actually looking at some puzzles that we can do where actually some turtles

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<v Pascal>can actually can hide themselves.

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<v Pascal>And then programmatically you can find out where they actually are doing some

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<v Pascal>turtle ballet for example that you do not control one turtle but actually multiple

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<v Pascal>of that kind of stuff that kind of stuff.

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<v Ingo>So if i am a parent or a teacher and and like to use total growth where do i start.

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<v Pascal>Now okay if you would like to try it out it's the first thing you have to go

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<v Pascal>to turtlegrowth.net and that kind of stuff just in this case create yourself

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<v Pascal>a room log in and that kind of stuff play a little bit with it and etc,

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<v Pascal>we do have extensive courseware it's almost over 195 in this case pages okay

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<v Pascal>uh the environment itself is actually in six languages in that kind of swedish

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<v Pascal>english french spanish and german

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<v Pascal>and dutch of course and actually we're also trying to work with and of course

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<v Pascal>nowadays in this case with ai that isn't that difficult actually to pull the

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<v Pascal>whole in this case english in this case courseware,

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<v Pascal>through the translator and actually have that also in this case in these languages

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<v Pascal>and actually all to add more languages to it but still.

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<v Ingo>In the ai world we we need to teach our kids to become a programmer or at.

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<v Pascal>Least yeah no definitely the whole idea still might change in three years but

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<v Pascal>for now quite simple with ai,

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<v Pascal>You need to be the one commanding AI, because actually that's the same thing

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<v Pascal>you're commanding the turtle.

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<v Pascal>You're commanding the AI. So much difference there isn't.

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<v Pascal>The turtle will do what you say it to do, not what you want it to do.

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<v Pascal>That's the same thing with AI.

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<v Ingo>But it's still deterministic.

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<v Pascal>Yeah, exactly. It's more deterministic than AI, definitely.

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<v Ingo>Okay, so with the course material available, you showed some PDFs where a kid can go step up.

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<v Pascal>By step step by step there's even also in the environment actually there's an

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<v Pascal>online tutorial and that kind

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<v Pascal>of stuff it's actually in this case also checking if the kid actually does

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<v Pascal>what it says it will actually in this case when he finds out that it's not quite

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<v Pascal>there for example it actually gives some hints and that kind of stuff and actually

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<v Pascal>with all the let's say samples and inspirations and that kind of stuff it can

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<v Pascal>copy it back in this case to its work place and that kind of stuff so.

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<v Ingo>When i find a bug or like to help how do i reach you or what should i do.

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<v Pascal>Yeah, we are the Mastodon account. You can also find us, of course,

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<v Pascal>on LinkedIn and that kind of stuff.

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<v Pascal>On GitHub, in this case, definitely in this case, all the, let's say,

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<v Pascal>material in that kind of PDFs and that kind of stuff.

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<v Pascal>We're currently in the process of, because we're actually having our own, in this case, GitLab.

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<v Pascal>And we're still finding out in this case, because we're not super happy in this

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<v Pascal>case with GitHub and that kind of stuff. We might go to CodeBag, for example.

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<v Pascal>We're deciding on that one and actually, you know, we'll push the whole code

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<v Pascal>repository also to that.

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<v Ingo>And is there a special i don't know feature or something you would say at the

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<v Ingo>moment you need help with.

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<v Pascal>Uh definitely in this case with more people in this case we need more trainers

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<v Pascal>so train the trainers that that's a good point,

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<v Pascal>again people actually translating the work that we cannot do automatically or

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<v Pascal>definitely yeah if i prefer i would like to have human translators because they

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<v Pascal>also can use more git-like language and that kind of stuff that's also what we did with the Dutch and,

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<v Pascal>the English and the German were actually there ourselves, etc.

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<v Ingo>Okay. Thanks a lot. Cool project, Pascal, that you told us what Turtle Grove is, what it does.

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<v Ingo>And I wish you the best of luck for that many, many people learn programming with Turtle Grove.

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<v Pascal>Thank you very much for having me.